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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
I looks like my fast idle control valve in the TB (G10 metro) is staying open causing a high idle when warm. Can one replace it with a good used one from a junk yard, or do you have to replace the whole bottom TB as a unit.

OR, how could one disable, block or bypass that valve?

If so, is there a way I could boost the idle in my cold North Dakota winters if I block off the air control valve in the TB.

Thanks for any input.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:29 pm 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
The 1989 FSM says the air valve in the lower half of the T.B. can be replaced.
Can you post a pic of the throttle body?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:33 am 
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Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
These are not my pictures, but my car is the same.

Image
Image
Image

In the last picture you see the hole that the air enters into the valve is cold and open. The other two pics show the valve from the bottom.

I was thinking of blocking the valve off from the bottom ( If I can't replace it ) I still need coolant to flow thru that part of the TB for the coolant sensor. I was also thinking that for cold start in North Dakota, that I could wire in a switch to the air conditioning idle air valve. This would open that valve and boost the idle when cold.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:46 am 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
I have a few complete G10 TBI units, if you want 1 it is free+shipping.
Check your local parts house, the rebuild kit for the early TBI units is Borg-Warner 10939

good luck :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:23 am 
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Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
I may take you up on that offer. What is all included in the TB kit?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:14 am 
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abby normal
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These instructions are for a 1989 G10 metro-Borg-Warner P / N 10939

This kit covers 1989-1991 years. You may want to see if a newer version
is made as I think you have a 1993 car.



good luck :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
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Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
I actually own 2, one 91 and the other 93 metro. The 91 is the car with th problem. I have the factory service manuals for both, and I also have the parts manual. In the service manual it does say you can replace the fast idle valve in the TB, but in the aftermarket manual haynes/chiltons it states that the valve is not to be replaced? Also in the parts manual, it doesn't even show the valve or a part number for it. The illustrations in the parts manuals is very detailed, but no fast air valve is shown. That's why my question. Has anyone every done it.

Thanks for your postings tonight. Gives me somthing to do at work!!

Ross


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:26 am 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
RossT wrote:
I actually own 2, one 91 and the other 93 metro. The 91 is the car with th problem. I have the factory service manuals for both, and I also have the parts manual. In the service manual it does say you can replace the fast idle valve in the TB, but in the aftermarket manual haynes/chiltons it states that the valve is not to be replaced? Also in the parts manual, it doesn't even show the valve or a part number for it. The illustrations in the parts manuals is very detailed, but no fast air valve is shown. That's why my question. Has anyone every done it.



Well, I have not changed the air valve, but at 5:30 am, the car accident (fender bender) down the street
woke me up. :twisted: :twisted:
Not being able to sleep, I found an early G10 TBI and disected it BU HAHAHA----- :)
Here's a pic of the internals, and a scan of the 1989 FSM procedure.
All I did was unscrew the plastic seat, and removed the spring and air valve. BTW, my valve and seat had
carbon grains on them, I cleaned them with a rag and alcohol.


Update:The Early G10 throttle body base gasket is Fel-Pro PN# 60921 or 13-3074


Image




good luck :)


Last edited by 87t1 on Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:44 am
Posts: 451
Location: near Burbank, Calif
87t1 wrote:
Check your local parts house, the rebuild kit for the early TBI units is Borg-Warner 10939

Thanks for the Borg-Warner kit part number.
I ordered that kit online last night from Kragen (partsamerica.com) and got back the following email:
"We are happy to inform you that we have found a replacement for one of your products that is currently unavailable. Because of unexpected
supply problems, the Borg Warner product you originally ordered is unavailable and we would like to send you a Niehoff Ignition product in its place.
Below are the original item(s) and the substitute item(s) that we are sending at no additional charge.
Manufacturer Part # Description
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Borg Warner 10939 T.B.I. Kit
New Niehoff Ignition CK8042 CK8042 F.I. TUNE UP KIT - TBI

If this is unacceptable, please contact Customer Service. PartsAmerica.com, Inc."


Do you have any idea what the "Niehoff CK8042" consists of?
Like is it a comparable substitute? or ??

Thanks, Pres


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:27 pm 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
Pres wrote:
87t1 wrote:
Check your local parts house, the rebuild kit for the early TBI units is Borg-Warner 10939

Thanks for the Borg-Warner kit part number.
I ordered that kit online last night from Kragen (partsamerica.com) and got back the following email:
"We are happy to inform you that we have found a replacement for one of your products that is currently unavailable. Because of unexpected
supply problems, the Borg Warner product you originally ordered is unavailable and we would like to send you a Niehoff Ignition product in its place.
Below are the original item(s) and the substitute item(s) that we are sending at no additional charge.
Manufacturer Part # Description
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Borg Warner 10939 T.B.I. Kit
New Niehoff Ignition CK8042 CK8042 F.I. TUNE UP KIT - TBI

If this is unacceptable, please contact Customer Service. PartsAmerica.com, Inc."


Do you have any idea what the "Niehoff CK8042" consists of?
Like is it a comparable substitute? or ??

Thanks, Pres



:huh: ... You could E-mail them and attach the scan I posted, asking if their parts were the same. :)



good luck :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
I thousand thank yous to you!

So does it look like the thermowax thing can be removed, or is it permenent?

Also, from what you are saying, it looks like one can adjust the tension on the valve/seat/spring. So maybee, if a valve is not shutting when hot, you could adjust it so that it does? Or is the only adjustment done by the was matrix thing as it heats up?

My next step will be to go to the junk yard in the morning and take a few apart before I take mine apart so I know what I am doing. Also to collect some extra parts.

Hopfully mine is just carboned up, preventing the valve from closing, or the tension just needs to be adjusted.

Thanks again, I am of to work another night shift. If you get boared and want to play with it, heat up the wax thing in water and see if the valve will close all the way.

Your pictures are worth a billion. THANKS

Ross


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:21 pm 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
RossT wrote:
So does it look like the thermowax thing can be removed, or is it permenent?

Also, from what you are saying, it looks like one can adjust the tension on the valve/seat/spring. So maybee, if a valve is not shutting when hot, you could adjust it so that it does? Or is the only adjustment done by the was matrix thing as it heats up?

My next step will be to go to the junk yard in the morning and take a few apart before I take mine apart so I know what I am doing. Also to collect some extra parts.

Hopfully mine is just carboned up, preventing the valve from closing, or the tension just needs to be adjusted.


The thermowax capsule is crimped in, with an o-ring seal on its coolant side.

What the FSM says is to heat a pan of water to 140 F, put the TBI unit in the water and let the
water heat the wax capsule. after heating, check to be sure the air valve is closed at the correct temp.

After cleaning and assembling the valve and parts, I would use the FSM procedure,and adjust the lock ring
( valve seat ) so the valve is closed at the 140 F point.



good luck :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
GOOD!

That is what I wanted to know. Adjust the tension so that around 140 degrees the valve is shut.

I will give it a shot this weekend.


Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
UPDATE, Well I went to the junk yard and practiced taking a few TBs apart. Kind of interesting on how the cold start injector/air valve thing works. To make a long story short, before I was about to take my TB apart, I went thru everything in the FSM concerning idle problems again, and low and behold, i found my problem and it was the ISC idle speed control valve. I had originally ruled this out, but when I took a good one from my 93 and put it in the 91, the idle settle down to normal. I ruled out the fast idle air valve/ cold start valve by plugging the air intake hole just above the butterly and this had no effect on the idle, it the valve was stuck open, the plug would stop any leak and settle the idle down.

So off to the the junk yard again. I collected 5 used valves. I noticed on the good one from my 93 that you could not blow thu the lower intake part of the valve, but I could on my 91. Thus I assumed that ones you could not blow thru were good and the ones you could were bad. OF THE 5 FROM THE JUNK YARD ONLY 1 I COULD NOT BLOW THRU. I hooked each of the 5 valves up to my warmed up metro to let the ecm reset each valve and sure enough 4 of the 5 did not work. This must be common part to break down. You can still buy new ones for about $65.

Image

So if you have a high constant idle and can hear a loud sucking sound coming from your air cleaner, check the ISC.

Thanks for everyones help. I learn something knew everytime I post.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:21 pm 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
I know this probably too late, but you can diss-assemble and clean
the idle air valve in the picture you posted.


Image


good luck :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
I actually took one apart just to see how they worked. I kind of destroyed it in the process. Can you point out what parts to clean? The gold thing inside the center of the unit does not move, or at least the one I took apart does not move.

Image
Image
Image

If I can fix the rest, I will have backups. I am only out $10 for the valves, so no big deal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:33 am 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
You should have enough parts to make a used valve-
it took me 3 donors for one that functioned.

Image


Good luck :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Posts: 178
Location: land of fieros, North Dakota
Yep, I understand now! I will look at the other ones to see if I can't get a back up valve. That car is running betternow than it every has. You sometimes think that the thing has quit at a stoplight, cause you can't feel or hear it running.

Thanks for you help again. I will post pics of the remaining valves when I take them apart.
Ross


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 Post subject: I wonder...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:07 am 
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Location: Longmont, Colorado
I am having something similar...

The 93 Geo Metro will idle fine if the ECU is in Diag mode, but when in normal mode, the idle is quite a bit higher, even when warm. I cleaned the IAC, and it will SLOOOOWWWLLYYY drop in idle after sitting for a minute.


In my mind, since the car will idle normally when in Diag mode, it cannot be the TB. I could see the IAC being bad though, or the sensor the ECU is using to adjust the IAC being bad....

Any suggestions before I head out to the Dealer / Junkyard???

Thx.

Max.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:44 pm 
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abby normal
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Location: NorCal, USA
maxvamp wrote:
I am having something similar...

The 93 Geo Metro will idle fine if the ECU is in Diag mode, but when in normal mode, the idle is quite a bit higher, even when warm. I cleaned the IAC, and it will SLOOOOWWWLLYYY drop in idle after sitting for a minute.


In my mind, since the car will idle normally when in Diag mode, it cannot be the TB. I could see the IAC being bad though, or the sensor the ECU is using to adjust the IAC being bad....

Any suggestions before I head out to the Dealer / Junkyard???

Thx.

Max.


What is the car's temp when you are doing the test above?
Remove the diag fuse.
What should happen is after start, the idle will be raised due to the internal hi idle bypass valve opening,
and slowly decreases idle as the temp comes up. After reaching normal operating temp, (let the coolant fan cycle on and off)
insert the diag fuse and adjust the idle air screw on the side of the TBI unit to the setpoint.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:17 pm 
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Location: Houston, TX
One more great chunk of info! Huzzah for the search function and all the great people at teamswift. If it weren't for this forum, I think my metro would just stop running...


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Location: Longmont, Colorado
I am not sure where to post the solution, but it looks like I never did...

IF you want a TBi that idles fast and causes all sorts of problems. Simple add Radiator stop leak to you radiator. After it gets done plugging up the heater core, it will plug up the coolant tubes that run through the TBi to control the choke and send feedback tot he ECU for temp.

About the only thing the Radiator will not affect is the leak. In my case, it is a blown head gasket with a minor coolant usage.

It runs well now, and gets 47 MPG, even with the problem.

Max.

_________________
Current cars :
93 Metro w / 1.0
02 Jetta TDi
98 Blazer 4.3L
69 Camaro w/ I6 250
66 Chevy II 283 V8
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Miss my 87 Turbo Sprint :( ...BUT :I JUST GOT ANOTHER ONE!!!!! :)
Inliners forever!!


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