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 Post subject: Diesel swaps?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:14 pm 
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Yes, I searched first. I know about the 10HP one. I know that there's a Kubota one.

I want details. Not about the 10HP, but...

Basically, I'm sorta considering starting another project, because I don't think I'm doing enough by driving my Golf diesel (which is still breaking in) instead of a gasser. I'd like to get about 100 MPG.

For me, a diesel motorcycle isn't practical. Therefore, a Geo Metro is the next best thing. But, there's not much I can find on how to do a diesel swap into one.

I'd especially like information on the diesel swap that got 99 MPG, using a Kubota 3-cylinder.

I'm thinking along the lines of using a Kubota 3-cylinder turbodiesel, something along the lines of the D1105-T-E or a similar engine. I'd modify the injection pump such that I could get a rev limiter in the 5000 RPM range, to get more horsepower.

Are there readily available conversion parts to mate this or a similar engine to the Suzuki transmission? Are there taller final drives (or even 5th gears) available for whatever transmission comes stock in US-spec Geo Metro 3-cyls?

It's just an idea I've been tossing around for a while...

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel swaps?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:11 pm 
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bhtooefr wrote:



Are there readily available conversion parts to mate this or a similar engine to the Suzuki transmission? Are there taller final drives (or even 5th gears) available for whatever transmission comes stock in US-spec Geo Metro 3-cyls?



i have never seen any adapters available. you will more than likely,have to make your own.

find an xfi metro. they have the tallest gears. convertible will have the lowest. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Looking up the gear ratios, the XFi ratios actually look to be IDEAL for this application. :D

So, does anyone know how exactly the previous Kubota Metros were done? I can't find anything of note...

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:07 am 
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The SOHC 1.3L engines had even taller final drive trannies than the XFI.

If I had $1500....
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?U ... me=engines

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1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:28 am 
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Perhaps find a diesel from a John Deere tractor. Some of those are up to 44hp. Use the 1.3 SOHC trans, and put some big rims on it :) Not only would it haul ass, but it would get awesome mileage 8) And be fast enough for highway use!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:05 pm 
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Myself, I'm almost thinking that the XFi ratios might be a bit better for my application, based on some calculations I've done, and my experiences with my Golf.

Is the final drive the only thing that's different between the Metro trannies? I quickly searched, but...

I did find these ratios (without the FD ratio):

Aluminum 5-speed manual(MM5)
1st Gear: 3.42:1
2nd Gear: 1.89:1
3rd Gear: 1.28:1
4th Gear: 0.91:1
5th Gear: 0.76:1
Reverse: 3.27:1

Is the number I'm finding for the final drive, 3.89, correct? That places my 65 MPH RPMs at just over 3000 (using the 12" wheels) - lower than my Golf spins (it spins 3300 at 60, thanks to the 3.94 FD and 0.89 5th - but it needs it), and with the combination of the power mods I plan on doing to the Kubota engine, and the low weight of the car, should be just about perfect to have acceptable freeway acceleration, but economical when not on the freeway.

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Looking at this:

Image

It's some form of standardized bell housing - SAE #5.

Which does make me wonder if there's an adapter. Is there a company that you guys can recommend that makes adapters, that I could get a quote from?

Edit: And I successfully found the transmission section. I definitely want the XFi trans - the 1.3L trans isn't going to give me enough revs. 3000 RPM = 66 MPH on an XFi. 65 MPH cruise is therefore 2946 RPM. (Based on 145/82-12 tires, 3.79 final drive, 0.76 5th.)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Hmm... I just remembered that we've got 4 Cushman Frontline diesels. One runs fine. The others, however, are rusted out, not running (for whatever reason), flat tired, broken driveshafted skeletons - they're there for parts. But the engines look GREAT. I might pull one tonight and see if it runs.

They're Kubota D950s, which do (depending on who you ask) 20.5-22 hp at 3000 RPM. 41 or so ft-lbs torque at 1800. Studying some service manuals, it might only take adjusting (or even removing) one screw to get the engine to run at whatever RPM level I want.

I'm guessing, based on the graphs I've read, that without changing either the camshaft or the fuel camshaft, I could get somewhere between 30 and 35 horsepower out of one by turboing it and adjusting or removing the rev limiter.

How well do you think this would move the car, mated to an XFi trans? Max speed must be at least 65, and min acceleration must be at least 25 seconds to 60, with 20 seconds being STRONGLY preferred (my Golf can do 19 right now).

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:09 pm 
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With 40-50 lb-ft of torque, you won't have problems accelerating. You'll want some really tall gears though(leaning toward the 1.3 SOHC again). If you turbo it, you'll probably have a good 70-80 lb-ft of torque... That's along par with a swift GT engine. That'll get it moving really well. You want tall gears... Because running any engine at max RPM all the time will give it a lot of stress, and you'll be burning a lot more fuel. Diesels may have low HP ratings, but torque is what makes the car move..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Keep in mind, I'd be spinning at 2946 at 65 MPH with the XFi trans. The D950 is designed to run all day at full load at 3000, and do intermittent bursts up to 3200 with full load - and last for thousands and thousands of hours doing that.

And, sometimes, going to taller ratios in the name of fuel economy can hurt fuel economy - case in point, the 85 vs. the 86-90 VW diesels. 2 MPG were lost on the NA diesels, due to making the gear ratios (all of them except first, IIRC, but 5th was by far the most drastic change) taller - causing the driver to end up having to spend more time in 4th, negating that economy gain.

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:38 pm 
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A geo motor can run at it's top end all day long too... And because you'll be revving the piss out of it, you'll get about 25mpg.. Yes, making gears too tall is bad. But the gears in a geo trans aren't too tall for a diesel. Not by a longshot.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:44 pm 
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OK, I guess I'll try the 1.3 SOHC trans, then, unless the car I end up getting has an XFi trans already. :) (Gotta fix up and sell that pesky Civic, though, before I get to buying a Metro. :-P)

I am sorta thinking of the way my 2200 pound box-like VW is, here - not used to thinking in terms of a 1600 pound bubble car... ;)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:34 pm 
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:lol: Yep, the VW's are pretty swollen compared to a good ol' suzuki. They're much quieter, but pay a price in weight. If you turbo'd that diesel, and used either of those transmissions, you'd be cruisin real good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:39 pm 
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GeoZukiGTi wrote:
They're much quieter


Not after 20 years, when part of the interior is taken out, and things are loose both on the inside and outside of the car... and the older VWs weren't exactly known for good NVH characteristics when NEW! :lol:

It is a fair bit bigger, though. Four 6' tall people can ride in my Golf in total comfort, and it's quite safe for a 20 year old car, too - I'd say it's worth the weight... if I'm taking a bunch of friends, going on a long trip, or driving in the winter. For just me, though, going back and forth to work... why only get 40 MPG when I can get 80 or 90? :)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:35 pm 
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There is a conversion kit out there to convert a suzuki samuri to a VW diesel. Im pretty sure you could use the same kit on a geo or swift if you wanted a diesel burner.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:48 pm 
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Yes... there are those kits, but my VW 1.6 diesel is staying in the Golf that it's in right now. ;) Frankly, I didn't even think "G16 = G10/13 = VW diesel + Acme kit" for compatibility, but that's not the route I want to take. (If I were importing a VW 1.2 TDI from a Lupo 3L, then I'd go that way, but I'm not.)

Thanks for the idea, though. :)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:48 pm 
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Another advantage to the Kubota engine.

It only weighs 183 pounds, according to a Kubota service manual I have. And that's for an all-iron engine.

The VW 1.6 diesel weighs around 275 pounds. (IIRC, motor+trans is 350, and the VW 020 transmission is 75 pounds.)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:33 pm 
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Well, I've e-mailed Green Star Products, asking them how they mated the engine to the transmission in their car. Hopefully they'll reply with something of use. :)

Anyway, pics of the model of engine I'll be using, in the same model tractor as what I've got:

Image

Image

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:13 am 
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It's too bad you didn't have one of these sitting in your garage.
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/1999/03/23/super-diesel.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:05 am 
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Whoa, now that's cool. :eek:

Hell, I'd take the engine out of one of these:

Image

1.2L aluminum block engine, 61 horsepower, 103 ft-lbs, and 78+ MPG... in a car that's heavier and not much better aero than a Swift. :shock:

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:43 am 
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Well, I just tried to start the engine in the donor tractor... nothing. The ignition switch appears to be busted. :( (Either that, or there's a seat interlock, but I checked for one...)

Turns over nice and smooth by hand, got coolant, fuel, oil, etc., etc., though.

However, I did start the running tractor... note to self: when I swap this drivetrain in, GET FRIGGIN FAST GLOW PLUGS! Took a 60 second glow. :lol:

http://media.putfile.com/Kubota-D950-Startup

Part of the reason it smokes so badly is there's no cold start timing advance, and also the fact that you have to start the thing at WOT.

Could someone recommend a company to make a custom flywheel adapter?

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:19 pm 
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You're probably going to have emissions trouble w/ that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:16 pm 
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Ohio doesn't have emissions checks, except in a few counties.

And my Golf can smoke more than that, and the engine is in really good shape. (Read: If they actually sniffed diesels, it would pass.)

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:23 pm 
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Have you considered a CRX as a host vehicle? It's got the Metro beat for aerodynamics (Cd .29 vs .34 IIRC) , and their weights are similar (depending on year).

Some Honda tranny input shafts rotate CCW though, so you'd need to confirm diesel rotation options. The Metro input shaft goes CW.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:44 pm 
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And see, the CRX is merely a short wheelbase Civic. I thought of that too, but, the rotation problem that you mentioned stopped that idea dead. Plus, maintenance is a BEAR on those - tried replacing a master cylinder and brake booster on a Civic? Not fun. :lol:

Civics rotate CCW at the input shaft (so CW at the crankshaft on the flywheel side).

The Kubota engines rotate CCW at the flywheel, so CW at the input shaft, matching the Geo.

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1985 Volkswagen Jetta parts car
1986 Volkswagen Golf | 1.6L NA diesel | 5spd manual | Deep Cosmic Blue (LE5C) | 40.8 MPG
1988 Honda Civic | 1.5L 16v gasser | 4spd slushbox | Primer gray
Geo Metro Diesel Project: [....................] 0% - Engine runs! Researching flywheel adapter


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