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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2001 11:55 am
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
I've been intending to set up a FAQ for turbo setup, from turbo/piping/intercooler sizing to how much power, and what is good. However, there are books on the complete set-up so tackling it in one message has had me keep putting it off. <br><br>Sooo, rather than putting it off, I propose a new method. If you feel you have a new question about FI set-up, ask it in here. We can answer it a bit at a time, and delete the crap messages to keep the good info in the sticky topic.<br><br>This thread will be for nitrous/supercharger ideas as well.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub83.ezboard.com/bteamswift.showUserPublicProfile?gid=whattheeee>Whattheeee</A> at: 5/6/03 11:14:10 pm<br></i>


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:36 pm 
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Part 1<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Injectors</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Stock Injectors are Nippon-Denso Peak/Hold low impedance. <br>There is a sticky topic in this section on what I've found our stock injectors to flow and how much hp they are good for if controlled. Check that out for those Qs. <br><br>If you want larger injectors than stock you need a way to control it. The injectors in our cars will recieve a specific signal based on rpms/throttle position from your ECU ( <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://pub83.ezboard.com/fteamswiftfrm17.showMessage?topicID=563.topic" target="top">Chip and ecu theory sticky topic</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> ) If you upgrade to larger injectors you will have an injector that sees the same signal at the same rpm/throttle (load setting) only it will inject more fuel at that same setting. The problem is that when you can't use that extra fuel, like at idle, there will be too much fuel. <br><br>One way to deal with this problem, is with piggy-back products like the SAFC/ LINK AFM intercept/HKS SAFR/etc.. I use the product from link as it allows +/- 125% correction which calculates to +/- 1V change on AFM. It is also a true controllable 3D load map, unlike SAFC which is simulated. Anyways, what these products do is intercept the signal from your air flow meter. Altering the signal will put the ECU on a different load point on the 16x16 fuel map. If you have too much fuel at idle with a larger injector, you give less signal and the ECU will be on a lower load point. If you don't have enough fuel under boost, you can add signal voltage to go to a higher load point and richen up the mixture. <br><br>The problem with relying on piggy-backs comes in the fact that it is altering your AFM signal. The GTi AFM signal is only good between 0-5V. Once the AFM signal is at 5V and you are WOT, it is safe to assume that you will be at the top load point of your ECU. You will not be able to increase voltage beyond 5V and if you did, you still would not be able to go up a load point on the ECU load map. If you have a larger injector recieving the same maxed out signal, at least you will be getting more fuel than the smaller injector at the same maxed out signal. If you want to tune beyond large injector + piggy-back then you will need to modify the ECU programming. Unless you have a dyno and real-time eeprom editing capabilities, this is not easy for average Joe Swift. Aftermarket Engine Management Systems to replace your stock ECU are expensive and deserve their own message. They have been covered before, so I'll bring up some info from old threads.<br><br>If you want a larger injector you need one from a vehicle that is low impedance, peak/hold. <br><br>Examples of ND low impedance injectors that should work... with appropiate means to control them (piggy-back, ECU mods, or aftermarket EMS).<br><br>Turbo DSM 5spds. have 440/450cc. <br>Turbo DSM autos/Dodge Stealth TTs have 380/390cc injectors. <br>MKIII Toyota Supras have 440cc<br>Toyota Celica Turbos have 440cc I believe<br><br>And there should be more for that list.<br><br>I would stick closer to 380/390cc for ease of control. I have heard that those with 440/450cc have found ECU mods neccessary to get the correct idle.<br> <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 2:11 pm 
hi!<br>nice explanation <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>I did'nt know that they were ND injectors...<br>Mine are Hitachis... From a swift gt engine 1991 in canada<br>By the way....<br>do you know the link for the LINK AFM safc?<br><br><br>thanks <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 10:49 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
Here's a link to LINKs products. <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.brdevelopments.com/link.html">www.brdevelopments.com/link.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> I can help you out on a dealer for their products if you are wondering some average prices and such.<br><br>Lots of Apexi propoganda splattering hte net that you should be able to find. I'm not their biggest fan, but it's more just a personal preference.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 11:13 pm 
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Part - Who knows... I'm basically writing myself out of answering FI questions with these messages. It won't be perfectly organized, but I'll try to add relevant info in groups where time will permit. I'll touch more on fuel later.<br><br>Turbo Sizing-<br><br>First off, seeing as this questions comes up a lot. 3 cylinder Sprint turbos are pretty much undersized for the 3 cylinder motors. They would restrict flow at moderate-high rpms on a 4cyl DOHC GTi, and I would not recommend them at all for FI projects. They are basically smaller than most hairdryers (so to speak) and would not be a good consideration by any means.<br><br>Turbo sizing will depend on your project goals. As for junk-yard recommendations.<br><br>T25s are available on 95+ Turbo DSM (Eagle Talon, Mitsu Eclipse, Plymouth Laser) plus a few others.<br><br>Subaru WRX turbos have been used by guys like DMWDave with success. Good high horsepower turbo.<br><br>Georges44 uses a 16G... this is a late spooling, but big power turbo. The 16G is an upgrade for turbo DSMs, and for a little better spool you should be alright with a 14B found on the stock 5spd turbo DSMs (89-94).<br><br>I have used a Mitsubishi TE04H from a 2.2L Dodge Daytona so far. This is actually quite a decent turbo for lower rpm. Although the turbo was still spooling, my GTi dynoed more torque at 2200-2500rpms (and beyond of course) then a naturally aspirated GTi would at it's peak of 5000rpms with only 5psi of boost. The only thing I didn't like about this turbo are the small bearings around the shaft. They are almost 1/3 of the size of a Garrett T3. I blew oil past the seals of this turbo despite assurances from Daytona owners the restrictor was in the turbo itself, and despite similar base oil pressures as the Daytonas.<br><br>For higher horsepower goals and more boost, I will be going with, and currently recommend a Garrett T3 50 Trim. You can pick these up from a few cars, I will be picking mine up from a Dodge Daytona (a/r of .42/.4<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> as they are the most common turbo motor around here. The only problem with the Garretts on the Daytonas is that they use a exhaust bolt pattern exclusive to the million or so turbo Mopars. Not a big problem, but if you are buying a manifold made for a T3 bolt pattern, it will be the std. T3 pattern, not the Dodge pattern.<br><br>I think if you wanted something that spooled closer to what my Mitsu did and had the better bearings, I would go with a Garrett T3 40 or 45 trim. 40 trim on 8 valve turbo Saabs. 45 trim on 16valve turbo Saabs.<br><br>For a few other list of turbos and what car you can find them on, check a few of these links<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/turbo.htm">www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/turbo.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/turboupgradeforvg30dett/id4.html">cherrypicker.tripod.com/t...t/id4.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://web.inter.nl.net/users/turbo-team-europe/compress.htm">web.inter.nl.net/users/tu...mpress.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub83.ezboard.com/bteamswift.showUserPublicProfile?gid=whattheeee>Whattheeee</A> at: 5/6/03 11:14:23 pm<br></i>


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 Post subject: Engine management
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:05 am 
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And for the ultimate configurability one can install an aftermarket ECU.<br>SDS (http://www.sdsefi.com) are moderately priced and configured with a remote rather than a laptop, offer many systems, fuel, ignition and combinations of both. Check out their tech pages, nice information there.<br>Haltech (http://www.haltech.com) are expensive but very popular.<br>Then there are others like the Wolf 3d... <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: 5th injector ?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:58 pm 
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Hey, i'm a jamaican swift fan, i just came from the drag strip where i saw a turbo GTi run 12.8 twice.<br><br>He obviously runs a 5th injector but i want to know if the GTi's ECU cuts fuel when the sensor sees the boost from the turbo? <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: no
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:00 am 
No, the ecu will no cut becouse ssgti carries a hot wire maf, not a MAP.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Pistons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:06 am 
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thanks a lot oscar B<br><br>could you or anyone for that matter, tell me if it is true that gti's carry forged pistons? <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Pistons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:00 pm 
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no forged pistons, not even the cultus, seen firsthand, bigbearzuke has some cultus pistons, they look nice, but higher compression. <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: 5th injector
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:20 am 
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thanks for the info n1tr0<br><br>next question?<br>is it ok to put the fifth injector in front of the MAF sensor, or is it better to put it after, nearer to the intake manifold?<br>anyone? <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: No
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:17 pm 
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You definitely want to have the injector as close to the engine as possible without hurting the fuel distribution. I wouldn't want fuel in the hotwire AFM, turbo or intercooler.<br>Keep the potentially explosive portion of your system small, I'm speaking from experience here. I have had some nasty backfires/explosions in the intercooler and intake due to a 5th injector latching open with a bad pressure switch. The injector was mounted upstream in a knee next to the throttle body, but I've had it latch open sometimes filling the whole induction system with fuel fumes. <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: MSD Ignition question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:30 pm 
Hi,<br>I would like to know what would be involved in installing an MSD Ignition (Universal Boost Timing Master) on my Swift... I've been told that I'll need a tach adapter to make it work properly....<br><br>My Question is, Exactly where and how will the wiring be done?? Does anybody here have an MSD setup in their swift?? I need to know exactly how it is wired in...A schematic or diagram showing the exact installation would be ideal....<br><br>Some help would be greatly appreciated.....<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Thanks....<br><br>Jonathan Gomez<br>94 GTi Turbo <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: No
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:05 am 
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Never worked with the timing retard but tell us what needs to be hooked up as per instructions and we can tell you were everything needs to go.<br><br> <p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:xx-small;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Kyle Jones<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/ksj/myswift.html"><br>Junk-Yard Turbo set-up, formerly NOS-fed, constantly evolving 1989 Suzuki Swift</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: thanks..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:58 am 
Thanks for your reply...<br>I have a basic wiring diagram of the install...(that I got off the MSD website) But I also had been told by MSD, after sending them a schematic of the Swift ignition system, that I'll need the Tach Adapter for the system to work... (http://www.SSGTi.com also mentioned that the car won't run without the tach adapter)<br>Can I send you the wiring diagram for you to take a look at it? Maybe you can see where it would fit into the swift system... and the Tach Adapter as well...<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Jonathan Gomez <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: pistons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:05 pm 
n1tro, how can you look at a piston and tell if its forged or not?. What do you look for? As far as i know suzuki says the gti pistons are forged,as is the crank. I have seen the pistons as well as the crank, as a matter of fact ive seen the entire engine as i used to sell these parts <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: thanks..
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:16 pm 
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This is a message that people don't want to believe. pistons are cast. I've cracked a few around the ring lands, and I know another turbo GTi that has cracked a few. I've had half a dozen G13Bs apart. I also know of some turbo3 guys who have cracked a few of their pistons so I'd be inclined to say that even those are not forged <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>without seeing it in official Suzuki documentation</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <br><br>This is from a 1989 GTi manual, and the newer GTi pistons share the exact same part number as the older GTis from other research. Chances of one year forged, other year cast are very slim if they both have the same part #.<br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://members.shaw.ca/countach4sale/images/swiftpistons.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:xx-small;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Kyle Jones<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/ksj/myswift.html"><br>Junk-Yard Turbo set-up, formerly NOS-fed, constantly evolving 1989 Suzuki Swift</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: thanks
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:59 pm 
there are 2 types of pistons . one with the part # ending in -OAO, and the other ending in -OBO . i think the OBO came out mid 1991 <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: pistons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:02 pm 
JE pistons are forged as well and ive seen people crack,melt,disintegrate these as well <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: thanks
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:42 pm 
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One is probably sohc, and other dohc... Or perhaps they have recently just been replaced with one part #, or perhaps our Suzuki dealer doesn't know what they are talking about (not entirely off the wall). Whatever the case, there is a 99% chance that the motor in my car has cast aluminum alloy pistons. <br><br>Cracking pistons around the ring langs is also function of piston design. If you don't do things to alleviate the pressures around there on boosted motors, they will be one of the first things to fail... cast or forged. There needs to be a good 'boosted' piston design... <p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:xx-small;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Kyle Jones<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/ksj/myswift.html"><br>Junk-Yard Turbo set-up, formerly NOS-fed, constantly evolving 1989 Suzuki Swift</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: pistons
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:45 pm 
when suzuki updates their product they change or undate part # <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:50 pm 
where can I find a set of turbo heaDERS FOR A 99GTI? oR DO I have to have them custon made? And If I do what would be the specs? <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:09 am 
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HI, im wondering what one might think of this turbo conversion, I have a 91 firefly lawnmower, yes the 1 litre sipper. Anyway, at the scrap yard i found a turbo colt sedan, that someone had imported from japan. It has the turbo, waste gate, plumbing, eletrical etc....., When i got half of the turbos pipes off i was able to give the turbine blades a spin, by hand of course, and they spun smooth, no grating or anything that i could notice. Now for the hard part, this car is a 4 banger, mine is the lowly 3. Now from what i can see aside from playing with the head er setup it all seems more or less straight forward, aside from running oil lines to the turbine. Two main questions are, 1 electrical - what is important to have hooked up. 2nd injectors? do these have to be upgraded as well? ok maybe there should be a million questions, but.... any help would be great. thanks Email at gielens@telus.net or here :D


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 Post subject: fhgzdfhgdzfgdf
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:15 am 
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If I have a oilcooled-turbo where do u think its best to take the oil from??

PS i might have formed this question wrong... but the answer will tell :)

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-Your Brother David


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:21 am 
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Location: Brabant
Hey peoples,

after 2 weeks of boosting my GTi (together with -iCe-) for aprox. 9 PSI on a standard engine now my headgasket is blown :(

OK, we could wait for it that this would happen, my car has only 50.000 km's but is 11 years old. Perhaps it was not that good anymore but we've had also a little (unhearable) detonation. For this moment I'm not shure about the status of the head. Let's hope it's not (too much) demaged.

But: now I'm thinking of doing some mods to lower the compression (grind 0.5-0.75mm from the pistons). Would it be a good idea or absolutly nonsens to replace the bearings of the crankshaft and rods?

Probably there will be no decompression plate available here in the NL.

Goal is still the 9-10 PSI of boost, in a few moths completely tuned with a stand alone ECU.

What is your opinion?

greets,


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